Religion vs. Atheism in Parenting

A few weeks back, I read Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion say:

I want us to flinch when we hear of a 'Christian child' or a 'Muslim child'. Small children are too young to know their views on life, ethics and the cosmos. We should no more speak of a Christian child than of a Keynesian child, a monetarist child or a Marxist child. Automatic labeling of children with the religion of their parents is not just presumptuous. It is a form of mental child abuse.

I've been thinking about this ever since, when I was asked the following questions by Ashok in comments on his Temple Matters post:

1) What is your opinion on children being taken to temples but not encouraged to ask why?

2) At what point do you think parents/elders should leave the decision of finding personal meaning in religion to the individual? What would you do with your children?

For a novice parent, these are profound questions, and it is important for any parent to think about these.

To start with, there is no doubt in my mind in fully agreeing with Dawkins. I was indoctrinated as a Hindu child, and chose atheism only in my teens, after I discovered and studied other philosophies. I did not have to go through a tenacious struggle myself, but I can well imagine different experiences for others. I would disagree with indoctrination of any kind. One must encourage one's children to think for themselves, and choose what they think is right.

Given that religion is based on blind faith and not reason, it is hardly surprising that most religious parents blindly indoctrinate their children in what they themselves believe is the best for their children's good. But what about atheists? Do atheists equally provide an open environment for their children to let them choose between religion and atheism?

Even as an atheist, I believe that I should not indoctrinate my child with atheistic principles. Even if I was raised as a Hindu, I will let my child attend a Christian convent school if it offers quality education, even though it may expose her to Christian traditions. I will let her grandparents take her to Hindu temples and let her see and have that experience. I will teach her not to discriminate among her friends based on religion if I find hints of any such thing. Over time, I would encourage her to think critically for herself.

So my response to Ashok's questions is: #1 is pure indoctrination. Not encouraging children to ask questions is bad parenting. Not allowing them to, is mental child abuse, as Dawkins points out. #2: From the birth of the child. You can provide facts, information, and knowledge. But the decision of finding personal meaning in religion or elsewhere is a birthright of the child.

Of course, it's not as simple as it sounds (who said rational parenting was easy?). When she asks me for the first time (whenever that is), "Dad, what is God"?, what will be my response? Will it be "Dear, God is a fictitious entity that many people believe in?" No, I suspect I will point at an idol somewhere and say "That is what people call God", and thus side-step the question of his existence. If after a couple of years she asks "Dad, where can I find God?", I'll say "I don't know dear. I haven't found him yet. If you do, please let me know." As she grows up, I will continue to encourage independent thinking. When she is mature enough to understand how different people can have different values, I can then explain what my values are. Well, I hope so! :-)

What are your thoughts?

Update: 11th Oct: I realize that comments section on this post can be too restricted a space for many people to espouse their ideas. I have also learnt that this is a universal topic for parents who think. Hence, as can be seen from the comments section below, this topic is now a meme, open to all.

It has already been taken up by The Rational Fool, La Vie Quotidienne, and AgelessBonding. Feel free to take up this meme on your own blog and write on this topic.

Cartoon Credits: David Horsey, via The Primate Diaries

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  3. Religion vs. Gender Equality & Feminism
  4. Religion in Environmentalism

43 Comments

  • Mahen­dra: On this topic, a reader of my blog and fel­low blog­ger Worth had a post some days ago.

    I thought you would like to read it, com­ments and all:

    http://worthreading.typepad.com/worth_reading/2007/05/what_if_kids_sa.html#comments

    Thanks.

  • She­faly: Thanks for shar­ing that!

    The post and com­ments really go hand-in-hand with mine. While I jux­ta­post reli­gion with athe­ism, it dis­cusses dif­fer­ent reli­gions. I find Worth’s fol­low­ing state­ment quite interesting:

    //I would think those that spread through mil­i­tary expansion/empire and forced coer­cion, i.e. Chris­tian­ity and Islam, may not fare as well as Judaism or Bud­dhism or many oth­ers that aren’t even on our radar.//

    Very nice to get a per­spec­tive from a reli­gious par­ent, writ­ing almost on the same topic before I did. Thanks again for sharing.

  • Mahen­dra: You are welcome.

    From the empir­i­cal evi­dence of my life and the lives of my sib­lings, I can tell you that it does not mat­ter what you tell the child now. If you infuse the spirit of enquiry in her, she will ques­tion, refute, reject or accept what­ever you tell her based on the evi­dence she gathers.

    For hav­ing been brought up in the same house­hold, my sib­lings and I have very dif­fer­ent paths as far as reli­gion is con­cerned. We have dif­fer­ent tem­pera­ments; we meet and argue with dif­fer­ent sorts of peo­ple; we have dif­fer­ent read­ing inter­ests so we have made our choices differently.

    It hurts par­ents to hear this but in the end, par­ent­ing shapes only a small part of behav­iours; what it does shape is val­ues. And an open mind and a spirit of enquiry are pretty good val­ues to teach any child, I think.

    Thanks.

  • Mahen­dra, when we were very young, my mother told my broth­ers and me that we should grow up first and become adults before decid­ing whether we thought God existed or not. I took her advice and con­se­quently grew up agnos­tic, refus­ing to make a deci­sion about the exis­tence of deity until I was 40 (The typ­i­cal age at which an Amer­i­can becomes an adult). Look­ing back, I think mom was right — it’s best not to make some deci­sions when one is still a child.

    Very good post!

  • Too much indoc­tri­na­tion by par­ents can result in rebel­lion.
    But yes I agree with She­faly about bring­ing up the kids with an open mind and a spirit of inquiry. Amaz­ingly my kids never once asked me about God when they were grow­ing up! They asked me about every­thing, except God. We never dis­cussed God with them but we have dis­cussed what is good, what is right and what is wrong, and yes we have dis­cussed every­thing under the sky from space­ships to phi­los­o­phy, but never God.
    I guess they never talked about it because they knew it didn’t mat­ter. Not to me nor to my hus­band.
    Today they asso­ciate reli­gion with rit­u­als, not good­ness, with weak­ness, not strength.
    I don’t know why. I never told them.

  • Great post. I read Dawkins (I’m a big fan of his books of evo­lu­tion) and I wanted to find out how hard it is for Indian par­ents to keep an open mind about their children’s views on reli­gion. I sus­pect that deep down, it is very hard for us Indi­ans to tell our chil­dren — “look. this is what I believe. But keep an open mind and for­mu­late your own opin­ions”. I am not a psy­chol­o­gist or a soci­ol­o­gist, but I think that’s very hard to do in our cul­tural con­text, where there is no clear sep­a­ra­tion of reli­gion from any­thing we do — wak­ing up, eat­ing, going to work, writ­ing an exam, start­ing a new ven­ture etc, I get this feel­ing that as par­ents, we are always wor­ried about indoc­tri­na­tion from the out­side — in other words, “what if my child con­verts to another reli­gion? Id bet­ter play it safe and indoc­tri­nate him/her to my own religion/caste/sub caste/deities”

  • Mahen­dra wrote:

    Do athe­ists equally pro­vide an open envi­ron­ment for their chil­dren to let them choose between reli­gion and atheism?

    The ques­tion is mis­lead­ing, and a clever trap, often set by the reli­gious. It sub­tly casts athe­ism as just another reli­gion. It’s not.

    I’d reframe this ques­tion as “Do irre­li­gious par­ents pro­vide an open envi­ron­ment for their chil­dren to let them choose between reli­gion and rea­son?” My answer is an unequiv­o­cal, “I would not”. And, I did not.

    I have plenty more to say on this sub­ject, but to econ­o­mize on the stor­age resources, I’ll urge you to read my response to the Edge Annual Ques­tion for 2007, What are you opti­mistic about? Why?.

  • I sus­pect that deep down, it is very hard for us Indi­ans to tell our chil­dren — “look. this is what I believe. But keep an open mind and for­mu­late your own opinions”.”

    Hmm. The more time I spend in the blogosphere’s Indian “zone”, so to speak, the more I appre­ci­ate my father and his meth­ods in bring­ing us up… :-)

  • wishtobeanonymous wrote:

    Hi, I chanced upon your blog from Nita’s blog com­ments. This is a good post. This is a topic that always brings con­flict between me and my spouse. He prefers to bring up his chil­dren with all the rit­u­als that our reli­gion has though he is not per­fectly reli­gious at all. Instead of teach­ing good val­ues like being respect­ful to other human beings, being kind and cour­te­ous etc., many reli­giously (or rit­u­al­is­ti­cally) blind par­ents just go on to teach the mechan­i­cal aspects of a reli­gion like light­ing a lamp, pros­trat­ing before an idol or pic­ture and chant­ing mantras with­out know­ing the mean­ing etc. I think reli­gion should evolve with time and reli­gion should per­mit ques­tion­ing. My son asked his father “what is that thread?”. His father answered that its because we belonged to a cer­tain com­mu­nity. For now, I guess that answer is good as my son is too young to under­stand any­way. But as he grows older, I only hope that he does not blindly fol­low his reli­gion and turn a blind eye to humanity.

  • A very impor­tant issue in the even more dif­fi­cult sub­ject of rais­ing a child.
    I guess it is more impor­tant for a child to grow up being tol­er­ant to all reli­gions than being an athe­ist or non atheist.

  • Do athe­ists equally pro­vide an open envi­ron­ment for their chil­dren to let them choose between reli­gion and athe­ism? — Dif­fi­cult question.

    I remem­ber walk­ing by a shloka class for under 10 yr olds and being hor­ri­fied at the level of indoc­tri­na­tion. But then I would like to think that I would give my child an open envi­ron­ment and let the choice hap­pen naturally.

  • a shloka class for under 10 yr olds”

    Par­don my French, but WTF is THAT? And where does this happen?

    Never in my school­ing in India did I ever expe­ri­ence any­thing sim­i­lar except for a 2-month period when I attended a school that read out The Gita loudly in assem­bly once a week…

  • All: Thank you for your sin­cere com­ments and response!

    She­faly: //If you infuse the spirit of enquiry in her, she will ques­tion, refute, reject or accept what­ever you tell her based on the evi­dence she gath­ers. //
    Yes, that ‘If’ is a very big If, and is crit­i­cal, I think.

    //For hav­ing been brought up in the same house­hold, my sib­lings and I have very dif­fer­ent paths as far as reli­gion is concerned.//
    I think this is more the case in the mid­dle to upper eco­nomic and edu­cated strata of soci­ety, but I may be wrong.

    //It hurts par­ents to hear this but in the end, par­ent­ing shapes only a small part of behav­iours; what it does shape is values.//
    Yes, my focus in the post is only on val­ues, not on behaviors.

    //And an open mind and a spirit of enquiry are pretty good val­ues to teach any child, I think.//
    Absolutely. Thanks for your response. I think so too.

    Paul: I admire your mother!

    //…until I was 40 (The typ­i­cal age at which an Amer­i­can becomes an adult)//
    Ha ha ha…why do you say that?!

    Thanks for the compliments!

  • Nita: //Too much indoc­tri­na­tion by par­ents can result in rebellion.//
    Yes…

    //Amazingly my kids never once asked me about God when they were grow­ing up!//
    That is indeed very surprising…you dis­cussed ethics and val­ues, but never God…

    //I guess they never talked about it because they knew it didn’t mat­ter. Not to me nor to my husband.//
    Your com­ment has raised a new train of thought in my mind. Is there a way par­ents imbibe val­ues in their chil­dren in an implicit man­ner? By not doing some­thing, by not talk­ing about some­thing, too, we must be com­mu­ni­cat­ing its unim­por­tance to us to our children…?

    //Today they asso­ciate reli­gion with rit­u­als, not good­ness, with weak­ness, not strength. I don’t know why. I never told them.//
    Quite inter­est­ing. Thanks for shar­ing, Nita.

    Ashok: //I think that’s very hard to do in our cul­tural con­text, where there is no clear sep­a­ra­tion of reli­gion from any­thing we do…//
    I fully agree. It is very dif­fi­cult. Each time my daugh­ter spends time with either of her grand­par­ents I know she’s going to learn some­thing of a reli­gious nature, whether it’s clap­ping her hands to the sound of ‘Gan­pati Bappa Morya’ or what­ever. That’s why this deci­sion mak­ing regard­ing let­ting her have this expo­sure is a very real one for me.

    //I get this feel­ing that as par­ents, we are always wor­ried about indoc­tri­na­tion from the outside//
    You have hit the nail on the head — our cul­ture doesn’t encour­age indi­vid­ual think­ing and the impor­tance of incul­cat­ing a spirit of inquiry. Indoc­tri­na­tion is a meta­phys­i­cal given, a fact of exis­tence, the only ques­tion is whether its you or some­one else. How sad!

  • TRF: //The ques­tion is mis­lead­ing, and a clever trap, often set by the reli­gious. It sub­tly casts athe­ism as just another reli­gion. It’s not.//
    I didn’t think it was mis­lead­ing when I wrote the post. The title of my post, the use of the words between reli­gion and athe­ism, like in between apples and oranges, was quite clear I thought. (Both apples and oranges are types of fruit, just as reli­gion and athe­ism are philoso­phies.) But thanks for let­ting me know that it can be misleading.

    //I’d reframe this ques­tion as “Do irre­li­gious par­ents pro­vide an open envi­ron­ment for their chil­dren to let them choose between reli­gion and rea­son?” My answer is an unequiv­o­cal, “I would not”. And, I did not.//
    Your opti­mism and response to the Edge Annual Ques­tion is very nicely essayed. I don’t think I dif­fer from what you’ve writ­ten. But I don’t think a closed envi­ron­ment, and a restricted choice is the cor­rect way to go about it.

    One, I believe that each indi­vid­ual has a right to his or her ratio­nal or irra­tional beliefs. As I’ve writ­ten above, you can pro­vide facts, infor­ma­tion, and knowl­edge. But the deci­sion of find­ing per­sonal mean­ing in reli­gion or else­where is a birthright of the child.

    Two, unless a child or per­son has cho­sen rea­son over reli­gion by delib­er­a­tion, inquiry, eval­u­a­tion, and per­sonal choice, the pur­suit of rea­son is mean­ing­less. It is sim­ply another kind of indoc­tri­na­tion, thus mak­ing athe­ism just another kind of religion.

    My thoughts on this are not frozen. I’ve writ­ten what I am think­ing is right. As always, I am will­ing to crit­i­cally eval­u­ate my thoughts.

  • Wish­to­beanony­mous: Wel­come and thanks for shar­ing! What you describe is the sit­u­a­tion in the vast major­ity of Indian house­holds. In fact, as Ashok has been point­ing out, any attempts to ques­tion are sti­fled with arro­gance or indif­fer­ence. This is poor par­ent­ing. Why don’t you try to spend time with your son in the absence of his father, and do your best to answer his ques­tions as well as incul­cate what you think are good val­ues? Your son might end up lov­ing you and respect­ing you much more as a result!

    Mad­huri: //I guess it is more impor­tant for a child to grow up being tol­er­ant to all reli­gions than being an athe­ist or non atheist.//
    Thanks for shar­ing your view. From my per­spec­tive, respect­ing indi­vid­u­als with­out dis­crim­i­na­tion is more impor­tant than being tol­er­ant to all reli­gions. In fact, there are many aspects in most reli­gions that are evil, and ought to be crit­i­cized, not tol­er­ated. The crit­i­cism should be of the evil irra­tional prin­ci­ple involved, not of the indi­vid­ual. This is also not to excuse indi­vid­u­als who prac­tice evil under the guise of reli­gion, I’m just talk­ing of the best case sce­nar­ios. For e.g. if some­one is forc­ing a woman to undergo Sati, both the prin­ci­ple as well as the indi­vid­u­als involved should be crit­i­cized, not tolerated.

    Diviya: //I remem­ber walk­ing by a shloka class for under 10 yr olds and being hor­ri­fied at the level of indoc­tri­na­tion. But then I would like to think that I would give my child an open envi­ron­ment and let the choice hap­pen naturally.//

    Wel­come and thanks for shar­ing your view. Unlike She­faly, my response is not of shock but of despair. Your opin­ion on the mat­ter sounds very close to mine, but I will not let the choice hap­pen nat­u­rally. As my child grows up, I will do my best to make sure she has rea­son as an alter­na­tive, and to make sure she knows how her par­ents have cho­sen rea­son over reli­gion. For e.g. when­ever she expresses any irra­tional or reli­gious opin­ions, I will argue and rea­son to the best of my abil­ity. It is indeed walk­ing a thin line, and that’s the chal­lenge that I’m wrestling with that I’ve writ­ten about.

    She­faly: //Pardon my French, but WTF is THAT? And where does this happen?//
    I think a trip to India is highly due! ;-)

  • To those of you who have shown a ‘bal­anced’ approach (eg, you, Mahen­dra), I ask you:
    If your daugh­ter got scared of ghosts, would you or would you not tell her ghosts are all non­sense? Then why wouldn’t you tell her the same about God?? He is, after all, only a Holy Ghost!
    I am fully with The Ratio­nal Fool on this (and most else, it seems!).…

  • Thanks for your reply Mahen­dra. Yes it is very impor­tant to treat every indi­vid­ual equally, but since the topic was about athe­ism and reli­gion, i felt a child should be tol­er­ant to all.
    Since you have men­tioned that all reli­gions do have evils, so all are equally bad :D and so while choos­ing a friend, there should not be any dis­crim­i­na­tion based on religion…right?

  • Doc: You really make me think…and I’m very grate­ful for that! :-)

    As I men­tioned, the sit­u­a­tion is quite com­plex and impos­si­ble to cap­ture in a blog post/comments.

    If there is any emo­tion of fear — regard­less of whether it is due to ghosts or God or astro­log­i­cal pre­dic­tions — I will indeed help dis­si­pate the fear by encour­ag­ing ratio­nal think­ing. But rather than telling her ghosts are all non­sense, I would attack her line of think­ing and make her real­ize for her­self that ghosts don’t exist.

    I think the point I’m try­ing to make is that rather than mak­ing our chil­dren believe in some­thing just because we said so, I’m try­ing to focus on encour­ag­ing their think­ing and learn­ing on their own.

    I sus­pect there’ll be sit­u­a­tions where I wouldn’t act the way I’m describ­ing, so prob­a­bly all this doesn’t make sense. But think­ing about it is indeed help­ing me, if I may say so.

    Mad­huri — right! I’ve already writ­ten that in my post…:-)

    • krishnan wrote:

      Hi Mahen­dra,

      What does the “attack her line of think­ing” mean here.
      “But rather than telling her ghosts are all non­sense, I would attack her line of think­ing and make her real­ize for her­self that ghosts don’t exist.”

      Can u explain it?

  • ram­bodoc wrote:

    If your daugh­ter got scared of ghosts, would you or would you not tell her ghosts are all non­sense? Then why wouldn’t you tell her the same about God?

    These two ques­tions cap­ture the essence of vol­umes of dis­cus­sion on this sub­ject world over. Thanks, doc.

  • Mahen­dra:
    The sub­ject of this post is too impor­tant for me to let go. I have there­fore posted an arti­cle of my own, track­ing back to yours. I hope you don’t mind. Thanks.

  • […] reli­gion Ear­lier this week, Mahen­dra at An Unquiet Mind (AUM) wrote a post titled “Reli­gion ver­sus Athe­ism in Par­ent­ing“. The post got inter­est­ing and var­ied com­ments and I am not talk­ing only about my comments, […]

  • Mahen­dra: “Par­ent­ing, reli­gion, athe­ism and rea­son” as a meme? Whod’a thunk, eh? :-)

  • TRF: I respect peo­ple who don’t let go of impor­tant things until they’re resolved! :-)

    So, no, I don’t mind at all.

    She­faly: Yeah! I didn’t know that while I was respond­ing to a meme, I had started one in the process! ;-)

    Both: I’m grate­ful to you folks for tak­ing this to a wider audi­ence. I am look­ing for­ward to learn­ing more about this crit­i­cally impor­tant topic. I’ll con­tinue to express my thoughts here itself, so as to retain the ‘root’ of this ‘thought-thread’.

  • She­faly: Finally I could spend some time on your post!

    //These par­ents are also all reli­gious par­ents strug­gling with the right way to impart reli­gious val­ues to their children.//
    This is where I stopped in my first read­ing, and decided to read later. Because, like TRF, I do not under­stand where you got this idea that I’m being a reli­gious par­ent try­ing to impart reli­gious val­ues to my daughter.

    //While TRF has a grown-up child, both AUM and Worth have young chil­dren so the out­come of their exper­i­ments will be seen a few years down the line.//
    Given that you’re an eman­ci­pated female, I found it amus­ing to see how you’ve neglected to take into account the child’s mother into the pic­ture. What­ever my thoughts as a father are, the ‘out­come of the exper­i­ment’ is not solely influ­enced by what I think as the father!

    //It is true that just as reli­gion is often used as short­hand for fram­ing issues of pol­i­tics or soci­ety, chil­dren are referred to as belong­ing to a reli­gion of their parents.//
    True. That it is used in such a way is a very sad state of affairs in humanity.

    //Perhaps reli­gious descrip­tors are not as offen­sive as Dawkins should like to believe. It is just innocu­ous shorthand.//
    “Innocu­ous short­hand” is a euphemism for what you’re refer­ring to. I com­pletely and whole­heart­edly agree with Anshul who com­mented on your post in response: “What short­hands we use really affect how we think when we are not con­sciously thinking.”

    That is what I tried in vain to talk about in the com­ments dis­cus­sion on a pre­vi­ous post regard­ing the “innocu­ous short­hand” of ‘pro-choice’ and ‘pro-life’. I’m glad I can quote some­one in the cur­rent con­text who under­stands how ter­mi­nolo­gies we use affect our think­ing and why they’re important.

  • TRF: I find it amus­ing that you too are using a kind of “Argu­ment from Per­sonal Expe­ri­ence”. In my com­ments above, I tried to clar­ify that I will never allow an irra­tional fear in my child. How­ever, yours and Rambodoc’s approach to exter­mi­nat­ing that fear dif­fer from mine.

    As an aside, I won­der why you had to apol­o­gize and clar­ify that you didn’t mean “Ram didn’t exist”, but rather that “there is no proof that Ram existed”. Why was that clar­i­fi­ca­tion and apol­ogy necessary?

    I would rather pre­fer my child to learn how to tackle any irra­tional fear, includ­ing Ghosts, or Demons, or Satan, or Yama, rather than indoc­tri­nat­ing her by say­ing “these things are nonsense”.

    I’m afraid no one seems to get my point.

  • TRF: You have used a fear-mongering exam­ple of a hor­ror movie. When I ask “Do athe­ists equally pro­vide an open envi­ron­ment for their chil­dren”, I am not reduc­ing the debate to neg­a­tive experiences.

    Should I pre­vent my daugh­ter from watch­ing old Bol­ly­wood movies where prayers cause mir­a­cles? There is a world of great art form in those movies. Should I cen­sor those movies from my chil­dren just because they show reli­gion in a pos­i­tive light?

    When you say Rambodoc’s ques­tions cap­ture the essence of this dis­cus­sion, I beg to dif­fer. By focus­ing on the neg­a­tive aspects of reli­gion and irra­tional­ity, these ques­tions do not cap­ture the essence of my ques­tion at all.

  • Mahen­dra: Thanks for your note and thoughts.

    This is where I stopped in my first read­ing, and decided to read later. Because, like TRF, I do not under­stand where you got this idea that I’m being a reli­gious par­ent try­ing to impart reli­gious val­ues to my daughter.”

    This is an inter­est­ing one, because TRF also said the same thing. Alas, in com­mu­ni­ca­tion, one of the key issues is it mat­ters what is received. The impres­sion I got from both your and TRF’s posts was that you were con­cerned about the issue because reli­gion was sig­nif­i­cant to you.

    Given that you’re an eman­ci­pated female, I found it amus­ing to see how you’ve neglected to take into account the child’s mother into the pic­ture. What­ever my thoughts as a father are, the ‘out­come of the exper­i­ment’ is not solely influ­enced by what I think as the father!”

    I am only privy to the fathers’ per­spec­tives — or what­ever part of it you and TRF have shared — on this blog and on TRF’s blog. In the absence of any data on the moth­ers’ par­tic­i­pa­tion or views in the two cases, what­ever I might have said will have been pre­sump­tu­ous and irrelevant.

    Innocu­ous short­hand” is a euphemism for what you’re refer­ring to. I com­pletely and whole­heart­edly agree with Anshul who com­mented on your post in response: “What short­hands we use really affect how we think when we are not con­sciously thinking.”

    It may be my thick skin but a lot of things do not really offend me. Mainly because I do not care for them. It does not mat­ter whether some­one says “she” instead of “he” or “her­story” instead of “his­tory”; what mat­ters is the real progress women made. My inter­est in the ‘being’ than in the ‘being described’ was a key rea­son why despite major­ing in Mar­ket­ing at IIM-A, I did not pur­sue a career in brand mar­ket­ing… In my post, I used “she” because I was refer­ring to your daugh­ter, TRF’s daugh­ter and by all counts, Worth (I think) also has a daugh­ter so I was not being PC, just accu­rate. Even when I am not think­ing, someone’s reli­gion is quite far from my mind, as is their sex­u­al­ity or colour unless they do some­thing egre­gious to draw atten­tion to it.

    And another thing, though it is addressed to TRF:

    When we were chil­dren, we were not allowed to see any films that were not cer­ti­fied for chil­dren. I did see a film called ‘Escape to Witch Moun­tain’ and one called ‘Rani aur Lal Pari’ both know­ing that witches and fairies exist only in sto­ries. Much Bol­ly­wood fare is for grown-ups who can tell the car­i­ca­ture apart from the real thing. So this movie related thread I am watch­ing with some interest.

    Thanks.

  • She­faly: Thanks.
    //The impres­sion I got from both your and TRF’s posts was that you were con­cerned about the issue because reli­gion was sig­nif­i­cant to you.//
    Let me clar­ify that it is not reli­gion, but the extent of my open-mindedness as a par­ent that is sig­nif­i­cant to me and is the sub­ject of my post.

    Regard­ing “innocu­ous short­hand”, I should’ve cited your con­text as well: //Perhaps reli­gious descrip­tors are not as offen­sive as Dawkins should like to believe. It is just innocu­ous shorthand.//
    That is what I was refer­ring to in my response. I apol­o­gize for not being clear in my response.

  • mahen­dra:
    First about the clar­i­fi­ca­tion on the “Did Ram Exist?” post. As some­one who had to com­pete in the mar­ket­place for ref­er­eed pub­li­ca­tions, I have been trained to write my sen­tences very care­fully. As I had writ­ten in the post­script, “To say that there is no proof that Ram existed is not the same as say­ing that Ram did not exit. The state­ment is about the exis­tence of the proof, and not about the exis­tence of the sub­ject of the proof.” To prove or negate the exis­tence of a his­tor­i­cal Ram is out­side the purview of my inter­est or com­pe­tence. The orig­i­nal post was lim­ited in scope. It addressed just ASI’s affi­avit, noth­ing else. The apol­ogy is for inad­ver­tent mis­comm­ni­ca­tion, if any, and not for the denial of a super­nat­ural deity of Ram, which is my unam­bigu­ous position.

    These things are non­sense” is a sum­mary of the rea­son­ing that went behind a dec­la­ra­tion that super­nat­ural stuff don’t exist — their exis­tence do not make any sense, given the cur­rent state of the­ory and evi­dence. The crux of sci­en­tific and empir­i­cal inves­ti­ga­tion is whether a null hypoth­e­sis (e.g., ghosts do not exist), which is itself the result of received the­ory and evi­dence, is rejected or not. I don’t see how this process qual­i­fies as “indoctrination”.

    She­faly:
    In our home, we (my wife and I) deter­mined what was appro­pri­ate mate­r­ial for my daugh­ter, and not a bunch of bureau­crats who have no idea of even the exis­tence of our daugh­ter, let alone her level of men­tal matu­rity. Some­times we erred, but mostly we were right, judg­ing by the out­come. In this par­tic­u­lar case, my wife was right, and I was wrong :(

  • TRF: Thanks for clar­i­fy­ing fur­ther, and I under­stand my mis­in­ter­pre­ta­tion of your apol­ogy. I was try­ing to map the two stands:

    a> There is no proof that Ram exists.
    b> Ram does not exist.

    to this dis­cus­sion. As a par­ent, I will def­i­nitely state a> to my child, but will pre­fer leav­ing the child to infer b>.

    The dif­fer­ence in our opin­ions on this sub­ject is that you are will­ing to share the sum­mary and con­clu­sions of the rea­son­ing directly with your daugh­ter, and I am hes­i­tant to do so. (As I said com­plex sit­u­a­tions may arise that may change or influ­ence this, I’m not sure). What I would pre­fer is for my child to under­stand the rea­son­ing first, and be able and empow­ered to reach her con­clu­sions. If her con­clu­sions are wrong, I will engage in a ratio­nal debate, refute, and hope to cor­rect the incor­rect con­clu­sions, but I would like to let her make the rea­son­ing, rather than swal­low my conclusion.

    This is the sense in which I am refer­ring to it as indoc­tri­na­tion. If an atheist’s daugh­ter believes that God doesn’t exist just because her father thinks so, it is indoc­tri­na­tion. If she is able to rea­son it for her­self, it is not.

  • TRF: If your daugh­ter was born in the west, then there is every chance that her exis­tence was known to the bureau­cracy ;-)

    Mahen­dra: Cafephi­los has an inter­est­ing one going which touches both athe­ism and do-words-mean-more-than-they-say:
    http://cafephilos.blogspot.com/2007/10/is-it-time-to-abolish-word-atheist.html

    Thanks.

  • She­faly: Thanks. I’d read that post, but have been gen­er­ally play­ing catch up with my work and my blogging/commenting!

    Just attended to Paul’s post. Thanks!

  • Bloghopped over from Usha’s. I had done a post on this a lit­tile while ago

    http://thekarmacallingblog.blogspot.com/2007/09/faithless.html

  • I want to address this point by The Ratio­nal Fool.

    » To say that there is no proof that Ram existed is not the same as say­ing that Ram did not exit. The state­ment is about the exis­tence of the proof, and not about the exis­tence of the sub­ject of the proof. »

    To say that there is no proof that Ram existed is not the same as say­ing, “There have been no arche­o­log­i­cal stud­ies to assert whether or not there is proof that Ram existed”.

    On the topic of atheism:

    I have no opin­ion on athe­ism, although I like Sam Harris’s views on keep­ing it under the radar. I find it unac­cept­able if athe­ists attack the beliefs of devo­tees of Sabarimala/any other tem­ple. Would a true athe­ist turn to God if some rit­u­als were “fixed” ? I also find it hyp­o­crit­i­cal if athe­ists (esp Indi­ans) engage in “role play­ing” cer­e­monies, while hold­ing the priests to ridicule.

    Either you are in, or you are out. No tears will be shed on either side. Make your choice and stick with it.

    I think it would be very unlikely for a kid to become reli­gious if both par­ents are true athe­ists. We can fac­tor out exter­nal influ­ences (grand­par­ents, uncles, neigh­bours) because they are applic­a­ble only when the par­ents con­sciously allow them.

  • rc:
    I agree with you, so far as the proof in ques­tion here is for the exis­tence of his­tor­i­cal Rama. I was not aware that there had not been any archae­o­log­i­cal stud­ies to gather evi­dence to estab­lish or negate the exis­tence of his­tor­i­cal Rama. The orig­i­nal state­ment in the ASI’s affi­davit (since with­drawn) is “… [Ramayana] can­not be said to be his­tor­i­cal record to incon­tro­vert­ibly prove the exis­tence of the char­ac­ters.” This state­ment is more pre­cise and rig­or­ous, and I stand cor­rected. Thanks.

  • […] thought­ful post with a focus specif­i­cally on the issue of induc­ing fear in chil­dren and Mahen­dra of An Unquiet Mind gives the per­spec­tive of one raised in a Hindu […]

  • Dot­Mom: Nice write up, thanks for sharing…

    RC: //I think it would be very unlikely for a kid to become reli­gious if both par­ents are true atheists.//
    You’re prob­a­bly right.

  • I agree with Dot­Mom (above). That’s why it’s a bless­ing to be raised in a reli­gious fam­ily. Prun­ing them to be good chris­tians, bhud­dists, etc. may be mind bog­gling to the child. I myself was sub­ject to hours of prayer meet­ings, ser­vices, and more at a young age. But, it only added to the curios­ity and respect for the God I was spend­ing so much time for. I’m 17 now and aware of other var­i­ous reli­gions and their con­cepts. I believe the seri­ous­ness put into my child­hood has showed me tha reli­gion is a dan­ger­ous thing. One has to be care­ful when ques­tion­ing, doubt­ing, and research­ing reli­gions for one is deal­ing with their own lives and the wrath of ‘God’. I have doubted and ques­tioned and only found my reli­gion to hold true. but, hey don’t get me wrong. I’m not a devout, holy, strict indi­vid­ual. I have my doubts and fears but that there is NO God is just beyond me.

  • I’m sur­prised I hadn’t read this post! Won­der­fully writ­ten!! My son has already asked me what God is. (My hus­band is an out and out athe­ist — I’m not a believer either, but I leave oth­ers to their beliefs (and devices) and wouldn’t mind being a part of some small pooja if it’s going to make some­one I care for happy.) That said, here’s part of our conversation:

    What’s God, mommy?“
    “God is being good and fair to every­one, and being respon­si­ble to your­self.” (Respon­si­ble will change to ‘answer­able’ when he’s slightly older & knows the dif­fer­ence).
    “But Kelly says Jesus is God.“
    “Well some peo­ple just like to call it by dif­fer­ent names. But if you like, you could ask Kelly to ask her mommy if being kind is the same as God.“
    “But then who made the world?“
    “Didn’t you watch Planet Earth? It made itself, bit by bit. The world is ssss­soooo big, it’s hard for just one some­one to make it.”

    Etc. etc…he was curi­ous because some­one men­tioned God. Now he doesn’t really care, he prefers Star Wars :) I’m sure it will crop up again.

    I should book­mark this post and dis­cus­sion; very interesting.

    g

    • Dear Gauri,

      Thank you! I think my blog has too many diverse top­ics, which typ­i­cally results in a frag­mented read­er­ship, where read­ers of one kind of posts don’t know about the other kind of posts! :)

      Thanks for shar­ing your con­ver­sa­tion. I am very grate­ful. This topic con­tin­ues to engage my mind. It is two years since I wrote this post, and my daugh­ter is now three. I think a follow-up post will help me observe how this topic has evolved in my par­ent­ing life.

  • krishnan wrote:

    Great Arti­cle. But what hap­pens in real­ity is as was indi­cated a form of Child abuse. Let­ting not the child think or rea­son com­pro­mises the true pur­pose of edu­ca­tion which now has the only mean­ing of a way to teach how money can be churned out ignor­ing the mutual love among human beings.