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	<title>Comments on: Secularism: An Ambiguous Concept</title>
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		<title>By: Destruction of Ram Sethu (Setu) to build a shipping canal is looking at a country’s development only from the economic perspective &#171; World Of Availability</title>
		<link>http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1083</link>
		<dc:creator>Destruction of Ram Sethu (Setu) to build a shipping canal is looking at a country’s development only from the economic perspective &#171; World Of Availability</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 06:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] one of the comments which doubted whether the government actually doubted the existence of Ram. On Mahendra’s blog I found this link, and it quotes the affidavit as [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[…] one of the comments which doubted whether the government actually doubted the existence of Ram. On Mahendra’s blog I found this link, and it quotes the affidavit as […]</p>
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		<title>By: mahendrap</title>
		<link>http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1060</link>
		<dc:creator>mahendrap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>RTF: Thanks for taking the time to elaborate and throw more light on this. In simple English, this does seem to me that the Priest-penitent privilege is not secular. :-)

When the source you chose as the definition of the word &#039;secular&#039; is itself mired with controversy because of multiple interpretations, it simply ratifies my post!

None of the other communication privileges (doctor-patient, lawyer-client, etc.) have anything to do with religion. The PDF you&#039;ve linked to is unfortunately not available (one can read it &#039;as HTML&#039;), but Wikipedia does state: &quot;In twenty-five states, the clergyman-communicant statutory privilege does not clearly indicate who holds the privilege. In seventeen states, the penitent&#039;s right to hold the privilege is clearly stated. In only six states, both a penitent and a member of the clergy are expressly allowed by the statute to hold the privilege.&quot; If I was a Catholic living in the US, I would surely know which state to go for confession! :-)

Of course, my personal view is very much in line with yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RTF: Thanks for taking the time to elaborate and throw more light on this. In simple English, this does seem to me that the Priest-penitent privilege is not secular. <img src='http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>When the source you chose as the definition of the word ‘secular’ is itself mired with controversy because of multiple interpretations, it simply ratifies my post!</p>
<p>None of the other communication privileges (doctor-patient, lawyer-client, etc.) have anything to do with religion. The PDF you’ve linked to is unfortunately not available (one can read it ‘as HTML’), but Wikipedia does state: “In twenty-five states, the clergyman-communicant statutory privilege does not clearly indicate who holds the privilege. In seventeen states, the penitent’s right to hold the privilege is clearly stated. In only six states, both a penitent and a member of the clergy are expressly allowed by the statute to hold the privilege.” If I was a Catholic living in the US, I would surely know which state to go for confession! <img src='http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Of course, my personal view is very much in line with yours.</p>
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		<title>By: The Rational Fool</title>
		<link>http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1061</link>
		<dc:creator>The Rational Fool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1061</guid>
		<description>mahendra:
I am not very knowledgeable about the U.S. Constitution either. I wish I am - would have made me rich :) Otoh, I am glad I am not - would have made me live in Washington, D.C. :( Having said that, I am reading up on it - thanks to google, wikipedia, and the local library. Whatever that I say below, however, is based on my rather neophytic understanding of the weighty issues involved in the &quot;Seal of Confession&quot;, and I reserve the right to correct, withdraw, or refute any parts of it in future discussions :)

The &quot;Seal of Confession&quot; that guarantees absolute confidentiality to the Catholic priests is among several such privileged communication rights guaranteed to doctor-patient, lawyer-client, journalist-source, husband-wife etc. It is an exemption to the Establishment Clause granted under the Free Exercise of Religion Clause, both part of the First Amendment. The constitutionality of the exemption of certain religious practices, including confession, can be challenged under the Establishment Clause, and can be overturned if it did not pass the Lemon Test. To pass, the action/law (1) must have a legitimate secular purpose, (2) must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion, and (3)must not result in an &quot;excessive government entanglement&quot; with religion.

All fifty states in the U.S, have granted confessional privileges, but I understand that several states have infringed upon them too, for example, by compelling the clergy to report on child abuse. &lt;a href=&quot;http://law.shu.edu/journals/lawreview/library/28_3/ross.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here is an article&lt;/a&gt; that I came across on this issue: Karen Ross, &quot;Revealing Confidential Secrets: Will It Save Our Children?&quot;, Seton Hall Law Review, Vol. 28:963. I haven&#039;t read it thoroughly, but I thought that I&#039;d pass it along to others more interested in this than I am.

My personal view is that the Establishment Clause should prevail under all circumstances, and no exemption to any religious practice that may involve the infringement of the rights of others should be granted under the Free Expression of Religion Clause [the Lemon Test may have accomplished this to a large extent]. Such a blanket prohibition may not have been required [Jefferson and Madison may have wanted it] in the practically mono-religious 18th century U.S.A., but it&#039;s a must in a multi-religious society such as India, imo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mahendra:<br />
I am not very knowledgeable about the U.S. Constitution either. I wish I am — would have made me rich <img src='http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Otoh, I am glad I am not — would have made me live in Washington, D.C. <img src='http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' />  Having said that, I am reading up on it — thanks to google, wikipedia, and the local library. Whatever that I say below, however, is based on my rather neophytic understanding of the weighty issues involved in the “Seal of Confession”, and I reserve the right to correct, withdraw, or refute any parts of it in future discussions <img src='http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The “Seal of Confession” that guarantees absolute confidentiality to the Catholic priests is among several such privileged communication rights guaranteed to doctor-patient, lawyer-client, journalist-source, husband-wife etc. It is an exemption to the Establishment Clause granted under the Free Exercise of Religion Clause, both part of the First Amendment. The constitutionality of the exemption of certain religious practices, including confession, can be challenged under the Establishment Clause, and can be overturned if it did not pass the Lemon Test. To pass, the action/law (1) must have a legitimate secular purpose, (2) must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion, and (3)must not result in an “excessive government entanglement” with religion.</p>
<p>All fifty states in the U.S, have granted confessional privileges, but I understand that several states have infringed upon them too, for example, by compelling the clergy to report on child abuse. <a href="http://law.shu.edu/journals/lawreview/library/28_3/ross.pdf" rel="nofollow">Here is an article</a> that I came across on this issue: Karen Ross, “Revealing Confidential Secrets: Will It Save Our Children?”, Seton Hall Law Review, Vol. 28:963. I haven’t read it thoroughly, but I thought that I’d pass it along to others more interested in this than I am.</p>
<p>My personal view is that the Establishment Clause should prevail under all circumstances, and no exemption to any religious practice that may involve the infringement of the rights of others should be granted under the Free Expression of Religion Clause [the Lemon Test may have accomplished this to a large extent]. Such a blanket prohibition may not have been required [Jefferson and Madison may have wanted it] in the practically mono-religious 18th century U.S.A., but it’s a must in a multi-religious society such as India, imo.</p>
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		<title>By: mahendrap</title>
		<link>http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1081</link>
		<dc:creator>mahendrap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Nita: Please let go of your propensity to become embarrassed! You very much live up to the title of your blog...:-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nita: Please let go of your propensity to become embarrassed! You very much live up to the title of your blog…:-)</p>
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		<title>By: mahendrap</title>
		<link>http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1066</link>
		<dc:creator>mahendrap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 08:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1066</guid>
		<description>RTF: I&#039;m not very knowledgeable about the US constitution hence am curious: do you think the &quot;Seal of Confession&quot;, which guarantees absolute confidentiality to Catholic priests, is a secular practice in line with the US constitution?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RTF: I’m not very knowledgeable about the US constitution hence am curious: do you think the “Seal of Confession”, which guarantees absolute confidentiality to Catholic priests, is a secular practice in line with the US constitution?</p>
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		<title>By: Nita</title>
		<link>http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1065</link>
		<dc:creator>Nita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 07:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1065</guid>
		<description>Now I am even more embarrassed. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now I am even more embarrassed. <img src='http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: mahendrap</title>
		<link>http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1074</link>
		<dc:creator>mahendrap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 07:44:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Prerna: I&#039;m not very knowledgeable about the Indian constitution, but am completely with you regarding what you wish! Yes, maybe, someday...

RTF: Yes, the concept of democracy is also under the same threat of epistemological confusion! While there were clear distinguishing and defining elements of Democracy in the past, they&#039;ve been ridiculed by various countries claiming to be democracies.

Rambodoc: Thanks for clarifying, I now understand. BTW, you used a term &quot;straw man&quot; that I had almost used myself in the original post, before editing it!

Nita: (I think) Prerna was quoting from my post using copy-paste!

Oemar: Thanks for listing other examples of the failure of secularism - I wasn&#039;t aware about Haj subsidy! And no, far from being off the topic - you&#039;re bang on it. A word/concept that can be twisted to suit any person and has no clear definition, is a sure path to disaster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prerna: I’m not very knowledgeable about the Indian constitution, but am completely with you regarding what you wish! Yes, maybe, someday…</p>
<p>RTF: Yes, the concept of democracy is also under the same threat of epistemological confusion! While there were clear distinguishing and defining elements of Democracy in the past, they’ve been ridiculed by various countries claiming to be democracies.</p>
<p>Rambodoc: Thanks for clarifying, I now understand. BTW, you used a term “straw man” that I had almost used myself in the original post, before editing it!</p>
<p>Nita: (I think) Prerna was quoting from my post using copy-paste!</p>
<p>Oemar: Thanks for listing other examples of the failure of secularism — I wasn’t aware about Haj subsidy! And no, far from being off the topic — you’re bang on it. A word/concept that can be twisted to suit any person and has no clear definition, is a sure path to disaster.</p>
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		<title>By: oemar</title>
		<link>http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1076</link>
		<dc:creator>oemar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 05:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1076</guid>
		<description>India has of course failed on multiple secular fronts... absence of Uniform Civil Code is one. But even mention of these three words gaurantees uproars from the Muslim community because this proposal has always been raised by the Hindutva brigade. Reason for resistance - Plain Suspicion.
I am neither a fan nor a basher of mainstream media, but I dont like certain ways in which they report incidents. Specially the vernacular press... instead of saying &quot;man beaten to death&quot;, the report in bold will say &quot;hindu/muslim beaten to death....&quot;... and of course it is bound to create tension in the masses which is yet to mature as far as open minded religious sentiments are concerned.
From the govt&#039;s side, giving Haj subsidy to pilgrims when none of the Muslim countries are giving it is another pseudo secularism issue that needs to be dealt with.
To conclude, unfortunately Secularism is a word/concept that can be twisted and customized to suit any person and ideology. Atheists can claim it there&#039;s and so can the religious liberal masses. There is no easy way to point out that yes, he/she is right and the other is wrong..... (I think I went a little bit off the topic)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>India has of course failed on multiple secular fronts… absence of Uniform Civil Code is one. But even mention of these three words gaurantees uproars from the Muslim community because this proposal has always been raised by the Hindutva brigade. Reason for resistance — Plain Suspicion.<br />
I am neither a fan nor a basher of mainstream media, but I dont like certain ways in which they report incidents. Specially the vernacular press… instead of saying “man beaten to death”, the report in bold will say “hindu/muslim beaten to death.…”… and of course it is bound to create tension in the masses which is yet to mature as far as open minded religious sentiments are concerned.<br />
From the govt’s side, giving Haj subsidy to pilgrims when none of the Muslim countries are giving it is another pseudo secularism issue that needs to be dealt with.<br />
To conclude, unfortunately Secularism is a word/concept that can be twisted and customized to suit any person and ideology. Atheists can claim it there’s and so can the religious liberal masses. There is no easy way to point out that yes, he/she is right and the other is wrong.…. (I think I went a little bit off the topic)</p>
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		<title>By: Nita</title>
		<link>http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1075</link>
		<dc:creator>Nita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 02:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1075</guid>
		<description>Prerna, thank you for terming me as Nita with a wide angle view of India. I am indeed flattered. When I wrote that as a title of my blog, I sort of did it on impulse as I always (even at work, when I was working full-time)had this habit of looking at everything from a wide, often global, perspective, and people used to roll their eyes, but this is just my opinion of myself. At first when few people read my blog it didn&#039;t matter...but now with so many reading it, I sometimes feel embarrassed.
Anyway, thank you. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prerna, thank you for terming me as Nita with a wide angle view of India. I am indeed flattered. When I wrote that as a title of my blog, I sort of did it on impulse as I always (even at work, when I was working full-time)had this habit of looking at everything from a wide, often global, perspective, and people used to roll their eyes, but this is just my opinion of myself. At first when few people read my blog it didn’t matter…but now with so many reading it, I sometimes feel embarrassed.<br />
Anyway, thank you. <img src='http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: rambodoc</title>
		<link>http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1067</link>
		<dc:creator>rambodoc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 01:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://skeptic.skepticgeek.com/2007/09/15/secularism-an-ambiguous-concept/#comment-1067</guid>
		<description>Mahendra,
I meant that the Nehruvian concept of secularism is a &#039;straw man&#039;. It is unreal. Real secularism is when the State disregards religion in its dealings. Religion is a personal and private issue of an individual, and the State should have nothing to do with it.
This is the &#039;truth&#039; I was talking of. Alternative words like &#039;areligious&#039; should be applied if the ambiguity persists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mahendra,<br />
I meant that the Nehruvian concept of secularism is a ‘straw man’. It is unreal. Real secularism is when the State disregards religion in its dealings. Religion is a personal and private issue of an individual, and the State should have nothing to do with it.<br />
This is the ‘truth’ I was talking of. Alternative words like ‘areligious’ should be applied if the ambiguity persists.</p>
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